Clearly you can be both a Christian and an American. I for one am both. However, being one does not automatically mean that you are the other. I’m going to write more about the distinctions between the two later, but I have a question for you:
How do the two relate to each other for you?
February 24th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
One is where I am located. The other is my state of being and worldview. Me. Despite being raised here and having those ideologies reflect the Christianity I consumed, I try now to forsake most of that. I am not a nationalist. I do not pledge allegiance, but I do pay to the government what is Caesars. Jesus used the symbols of government to explain what the Kingdom of Gos is not. Much of those symbols could describe the american government.
I choose Jesus, over america, Obama, or Caesar.
February 24th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
They don’t relate to much! Don’t get me wrong, this country has been a hope for the world in the past and has been a great part of defeating fascism. Right now I am not proud of what our government is doing to the people of this county. Not to say that our government IS our county, but that is what the world sees and that is who we elect. As an american people we have begun to chose the lazy way, expecting the other guy or the elected official to take care of it. As a christian, it seems we have fallen into this as well. I think that American place there hope in government and policy and what needs to happen is to place our hope in Jesus. If we can master that, problems would start solving themselves. History play over and over and what it shows is that governments that have been “the good guys” in the past, given enough time, will become the bad guys. During this transition phase from good to bad, patriotism is pushed hard and asking questions is frowned upon. What is happening today? They say, “get in line and shut up, you don’t need to know this.” The scary thing is that the information is out there and people have bought these huge lies and don’t believe the trust, even when it is so very blatant. It reminds me of the scripture that talks about the scales being removed for the eyes. You can stare and stare, but until God allows it you will not see the truth. Truth is truth and right now you can be an american and a christian, but depending on what you think an american is that might not last long. Kinda all over the place. Sorry!
February 24th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Lately I have been hearing a lot about family having a huge impact on the Church. I believe this to be very true. Something I feel to be just as true is unity amongst the church. I feel the church is very divided in America. I don’t see too much unity amongst believers. Most of the time I see people grabbing a hold of theology and droctrine. Sometimes along with this comes pride and then walls are built up. Then the Baptist and the Methodist don’t get a long with eachother. Not based on who Christ is in them but the label that has been placed over there heads. I was thinking about this the other day a long with Pauls letter to the Corinthians. Paul asks a question in 1 Corinthians 1:10. Is Christ Divided? I really feel the same question must be asked today. We have so many different doctrines and so many different church buildings. It seems like the only people that we think are going to heaven are the people that have the same doctrine or theology as us. In many cases the dotrine and theology have become more important than Chirst Himself. Don’t get me wrong I know there is a lot of corruption in churches everywhere. But why do we instantly questions someones faith when they say they are Catholics, Methodist or they go to that super crazy mega church thats always on TV. Is our identity in doctrine/theology or in Christ? That should always be the question. Even if we have corrupt leaders and they teach a shifty doctrine, this doesn’t mean all the memberes are like this. Just because some gangsters wear Raider clothes doesn’t mean that all people that wear Raider clothes are gangsters.
I believe America was and still is at times a blessed country. After visiting other countries. When entering back into the United States I have felt a freedom that can’t be felt in other countries, in a spiritual way. I was talking with a friend from Australia and he was telling me the same thing when he enters America. Years ago America would give glory to God(in schools, Pledge of alegiance, songs) Americans still messed up all the time but they always seem to have a respect for God. That is what brought a lot of unity and hope to America. Thats what other nations saw without really seeing it. I am not really sure if this has anything to do with your question.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:11 am
The United States of America is the nation i reside in, and when i pledged allegiance to her flag as a child i pledged allegiance to “… one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” to serve a nation that honors the Living God is not a sin. My first allegiance however is to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God, Who existed before the beginning, Whose sacrifice covers all man’s sin.
it is written that there is no greek or jew in Christ Jesus. i believe as well, that for those who reside in Christ, there is no matter of nationality. Any given sunday there are multiple tribes of Christians gathered in small towns across this country who may never worship together. If that is what it means to be a christian, then i would rather be an american.
To me it is a matter of applying our faith and existing in peace. Soloman’s temple was built by the craftsman and wood of Israel’s Enemy. that blows my mind. It was that israel was finally at peace that they were able to build the temple, and those that helped build the Temple of God, to house the Presence of God, was constructed by the enemies of God’s people. To me, the United States Constitution seeks to create such an environment, wherein different states abide by certain common principles such as Liberty and Justice for all man allowing man to sin freely or love God freely.
I think to the old testament and the new testament. I recall the kings of Israel, both good and bad. i recall Daniel when he was taken into captivity. I recall a roman soldier named Cornelius, and Paul who told us to be disciples of Christ and not him.
This is a great topic Josh, as is evident in these wonderful posts. i could go all day on this subject, but will tried to limit my thoughts to one notion which is illustrated in the following Scriptures. i’ll let you interpret the meaning. peace and God bless
Philippians 4:20-23
“To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Final Greetings. Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.”
Daniel 6:25-28
25 Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language throughout the land:
“May you prosper greatly!
26 “I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel.
“For he is the living God
and he endures forever;
his kingdom will not be destroyed,
his dominion will never end.
27 He rescues and he saves;
he performs signs and wonders
in the heavens and on the earth.
He has rescued Daniel
from the power of the lions.”
28 So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus [a] the Persian.
February 26th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Shane i agree completely.
In my mind to be all that we can be as Americans we must be followers of Jesus.
God Family country, as the mantra goes, the later 2 find their highest self only under the Headship of Christ.
The founding Fathers realized this Headship as is evident in their lives, writings, and Constitution. In the eyes of those founders being an American meant having the freedom to be Christians, so to be American in its inception meant to be Christian and to uphold those things which Christ approves. many people who live in America today have no such conviction but to them this is just a country to me it’s an ideal a vision a commitment to God first which in essence is a commitment to America
February 27th, 2009 at 12:27 am
thanks guys. i’m loving these responses.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:28 am
It seems like this is a topic that has been getting lots of attention the last 10-15 years. As a pastor one of my challenges I have in modern urban culture is seperating Americanism and the unhealthy linkages to Christianity for explorers of Jesus. And that is also a challenge in helping those return to Jesus and His bride. Seems no different whether Republican, Democrat or other.
Though many disagree I think authentic disciples of Christ and Christianity in America in general are stronger because of the seperation occuring between Christianity and America.
As a related aside, evangelism in America got bootlegged into forcing people to pray to a Christian God and adapt Christ values without first falling in love with Jesus . The truth as James states, you draw near to God and He draws near to you. Regardless of what your nationality is.
February 27th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I find it interesting that so many pastors these days seem to preach alot on the “brand” of “American Christianity” or rather preach against it. I understand the difference between a nation and a following of Christ as Kenny pointed out, and by no means think two are the same ( my earlier post was my own individual view of being American and christian for me)
But what i dont get is why American pastors preach to American Christians about how our brand of Christianity isn’t the real Christianity, but then on missions trips and even in outreaches to other Americans we talk about reaching that culture by all means. Its like saying to the American Christians dont be too stereotypical.
and yet i never hear anyone say the same of Korean Christianity or Chinese Christianity or African Christianity. just weird to me its like we always have to apologize for being American. whether our political actions or our church affairs were the bad guys
February 28th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Not sure I completely follow you Noah but sounds like you’ve spent a lot of time thinking through this. Good stuff. Jesus will sort out “real Christianity” at some point as we read in the letters in Revelation 3.
Americans have a tendency to bootleg everything. Simply put for me though, I try to first be a Christ-follower and prioritize everything around that. That is challenging enough. Assuming the humble posture of servanthood it takes to follow Christ usually brings a good dose of apologizing and repenting regarding of the nationality. ha But that brings the celebrating and victorious living through so its all good!
March 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am
Good points Aaron,
Yeah that last post was lacking continuity. My only point was: American Christianity seems to get bashed on alot, and sure it has faults dont get me wrong, but Christianity in evey country takes on aspect of its homeland, some aspects are bignine and some harmful. I guess my point is more of a question. Aaron what things about our Christianity is Americanized in such a harmful way, because i hear this claim often but never hear specific examples. So in short i hear the complaints about American Christianity but never hear the “and here is why”.
Thanks Aaron i look forward to your reply. God Bless.
March 2nd, 2009 at 2:46 am
“Americans have a tendency to bootleg everything.” — as quoted in an above post.
i would beg to differ on this. in so saying, i hope to differentiate the public policy of america, with the private sector of america, with the faiths of america. i believe america gets a bad name from the actions of an influential few… wether it be flamboyant pastors, greedy business leaders, or sellout politicians… i feel that too often the ideal of america casts a shadow on the quality and reality of true american progress in the known history of mankind.
given any situation that involves people, there will be the potential for corruption and perversion by a forceful greedy few. often times the greed is not money centered but ego centered, or individual centered. some of the scariest world leaders rose from impoverished beginnings on the backs of populous movements.
i believe it is very important to differentiate bootlegging from influence. there is an interaction on either end of the “artifact” in question. there is the original, and there is the copy. what is the purpose of the original? and what is the purpose of the copy? what is the value of either item?
to the vain, as many would put it, the value of a bootleg is in the branding rather than the quality. the value in the original, however, is in the quality of the item. the branding merely signifies that quality. Should the quality diminish, then the brand value will diminish.
what defines quality? for the vain, quality may be defined by how many people look at you when you wear a certain brand of clothing or jewelry. for others, quality may be defined by the durabilty, and craftsmanship that goes into an item, the warranty backed up by the manufacturer, and the relationship of that customer to the manufacturer.
now to flip this around onto america and the church.
how much branding is going on in the church? does your church have a logo for their letterhead? what does it represent? is it Christ? did Christ ever designate a logo or a name?
what is the value of the constitution of the united states of america? is its value being fulfilled by our goverment? if not, could our government then be considered a bootleg of of the intended purpose of the constitution of these united states?
the issue i see in both realms lay in marketing. branding was a way in which someone marked their ownership of property. they would brand their cattle, shipments or slaves by burning their mark into said property. it is interesting that this term is used today in terms of marketing and promotion. Its represents relationship between the market and the manufacturer. there can be great value in a brand.
that said i see many “christian” shirts that steal the brand-image of a given product and replace with a catchy “chrisitan” phrase. one that comes mind is the “got milk” ad replaced with “got jesus?”
to me the intended purpose of this shirt is to use the brand value of “got milk” to sell the name jesus. one could call this thievery and thereby call it bootlegging.
in the matter of “christian-rock” bands. i am currently disheveled whenever i see that a “major” band is playing in a local church. their merchandise table is full with catchy t-shirt designs and sweat bands and stickers and what have you. they are glad to sign your cd or shoe or sock or what have you. they are glad to use the state licensed, non-profit “church” building to charge 20 dollars a ticket.
to me… i’ll let you decipher…
then we have our publishing industry, in which if we have a bestselling book, we need the devotional to accompany it and the calender and the bible study for your small groups and the children’s version and the speaking tour and maybe the soundtrack for the book and it would be great to have a sequel to this best selling book before we lose the brand loyalty, and if the author isn’t available to write we’ll assign a ghost writer…
to me these are all things that have resulted from christians being influenced by the world and trying to operate in that world. we need money to take care of our families and pay the overhead on our church buildings, and branding and marketing is a surefire approach to meeting these needs. the problem though is that in all this we are effecting our ultimate brand that Christ placed on us. at what point are we replacing a reimbursement for ones work with futures, and investment in a known marketplace?
Christ told us not to worry about earthly things, and yet so many times i view that we are using the worlds methods to tend to His flock…
these are the things that may be what is referred to as “american christianity.” ironically i do not see the us constitution nor the bible condone these things.
should the people of this nation have been clothed and fed with a “bootlegged” faith and governance, how might they get back to the real thing? who will teach them the methods to create the real thing? in terms of our faith, i feel it lay in a tempered understanding of the old and new testaments of the bible. america is a different matter.
to say that america is a bootlegger, is like calling a jazz musician a plagiarizer. to me america realizes that there is nothing new under the sun, and that man is capable of anything, and that there is a need to temper this profound potential, and that such temperance lay in truth, justice and liberty. the beauty of america is the distillery of cultures and ideas from across the world, refined by this notion of truth, justice and liberty, into one common language and culture. she is the melting pot, and Truth is the flame that keep her contents liquid.
Truth however is under attack and to me, this is why it is so important that we be sure that what we believe and practice is of the Truth, and not of an image of truth. It is important that we discern image from expression, and opinion from knowledge. that there be no importance placed in the brand, but in the value of the product. that we not defend ones culture or expression, that in this melting pot we respect one another and fear God, and know that His Word will not return void, that we are to be a light in the darkness, and speak Truth with Love, and know that we may never see the harvest of the seeds we cast, but should the fruit of those seeds cast more seeds, may Truth reign in this world, and may we never claim ownership over that Truth.
this is more of me learning and thinking than anything as i type. i hope it might be of some value to you all as well. i must get to sleep now:o) peace and grace to yoy all
s
March 2nd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
So in short i hear the complaints about American Christianity but never hear the “and here is why”.
I do think that Christianity in other cultures ought to have their own “feel”, but not necessarily their own “brand”. Doctrine ought to be the same. When I mean Americanized, I mean doctrine interpreted through American eyes in “general”. It seems, that we as Americans feel a certain way, then bend scripture to align with our view points.
Materialism
We spend so much and we give much as well, but not in proportion to what we have been blessed with. I think God will hold us accountable to that. We have not been good stewards with the blessings He has given us. We just have so much. And we rationalize keeping our wealth because we are not as wealthy as another. I need the large SUV because I have children. We create our own lines. We are the authority of what is good and right.
Turning the Other Cheek
This is a common sentiment in America. “Yes, turn the other cheek, but God doesn’t want you to be a door mat.” Really? We are to be Christlike. God let the unjust kill His Son… Forgive 7 x 70…
War
Just War Theory? Maybe. Maybe Not. I am not sold on either position. But in our current war, there wasn’t much debate if this is “WWJD”. That is a problem. We are America. We were attacked. We retaliate. Is vengeance the Lords or Americas?
To me these things are example of views that we express as Americans and then we interpret scripture to fit those viewpoints. The way we do church is an example of that as well. We go from church to church till we find one that “meets our needs”. Which is code for “a church where I dont have to think or behave differently than I already do”. We pick the church that is most closely in our own image.
March 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Shane, you bring up some good points that I have been thinking a lot about lately… i’ll try to be brief, though it takes some explaining, b/c there are two sides to the matter.
My thoughts started by observing the worship band at church. I noticed they are some of the best looking people in the church. Young and also, dressed attractively according to the “scene” of their genre. Their worship stood out also with their peculiar flair. I wondered if people in the church would want to be like them or admire them, not for their love of Jesus, but for their worldly attributes. I also thought about the distraction from the focus on Jesus. When the bible says that Jesus and his disciples met together for a meal and sang hymns, well I doubt it was a concert. They probably just sang without any human focal point.
On that note, the apostle Paul said that he did not come to teach with eloquence and education, but rather with power in God. In many verses, we see Paul making a point to say he did not depend on repute from man for his previous success as a renowned pharisee, nor did he by association with Jesus’ apostles or with any man of great stature (he said he met with men of repute privately so that he would not find he ran in vain), but his association was simply the power and calling of God, the foolishness of the preaching of the cross.
So from that perspective, I agree with your points, Shane about the worldliness that the church uses to attract its followers. It is not the “real thing,” if people are attracted to a movement because of a worldly attribute rather than God’s power.
NEVERTHELESS, while I hate these creepings of superficial worldliness, I must consider another factor that can easily be confused with the first. Let’s think about the meaning and role of “beauty” and “excellence” in the church. Should the church seek to be uncool simply because they are Christian? Or, even more poignant, should we NOT be eloquent speakers? Let’s not let this one issue confuse (though it does confuse for me which is why i’m writing) that the Bible ALSO calls us to shine bright our good works and excellent behavior so that the world will be attracted to us. That means we should excel at whatever we do. If we are musicians, we should excel at the music and do it unto God’s glory. If we are tent makers, website developers, construction workers, business men, or preachers, teachers and speakers, we should work harder at it than the non-christian, so that our work ethic and devotion to excellence are a good testimony of our character and conscience before God. Therefore, we as a church people, should not “suck” at those kind of “worldly” things. The beauty that such commitment to excellence will attain could be viewed as a “worldly” beauty, and if done right, it should be a beauty that attracts outsiders. Where to draw the line is where I get confused. If you make a flyer or a T-shirt for a church event, why not put all your skill and time and devotion to make it artistically correct and appropriate?
Well that explains my thoughts I think. Maybe some of you are better at discerning the difference between the two?
March 5th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
torri- i want to reply to what you wrote here but am about to start work! great stuff though and stuff i’ve been thinking about a lot as well!
March 8th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Shane, I agree to your above post about branding and Truth. I don’t really have anything to add, well said!
March 8th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
thank you everyone. some really well thought out stuff here!
December 4th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Whatever happened to the separation of church and state? Can we leave “god” out of it for once? I’m over christians in American shoving religion down my throat. Aethist-Americans unite. Keep your religion to yourself, I, for one, am SICK of hearing about it!